Jan K. Gorczynski: Mastering Keto & Creating a Global E-Commerce Powerhouse

Janek: 0:00

Janek, welcome to the show.

Kamal: 0:01

Thank you for joining us today.

Janek: 0:04

I am honored to have you on the show Warsaw Confidential. Appreciate it and thank you for the invite. Thank you, You're welcome, Janek. If someone clicks this podcast and we had to convince them to stay and listen what will they learn from your experience?

Kamal: 0:21

Well, I think we're going to be very honest, so we're going to probably cover a couple of things about scaling and how we get started from basically scratch to at least a couple of million euros. So I think we're going to be blunt about a lot of things. Whatever you're gonna ask, it's confidential show, so I understand we're trying to make it less confidential. Um and uh, and yeah, we're going to cover a couple of things like, such as optimizing your health, uh, then optimizing your performance and, on top of that, or uh in relation with that, uh, how to optimize your business and how to optimize you know, all the strategies and everything that you do in your life.

Janek: 1:10

Beautiful. I'd love that c walk me through the early days of your company of BK, though Tell me what's the story behind it.

Kamal: 1:20

Yeah, well, actually very funny and a sweet story, um, uh, because, um, I was in a completely different um, uh sector. So I was doing, uh, I was doing real estate and before I did a family business, which was also unrelated to to this, was more in a pharmaceutical distribution. Uh and uh and um, I was doing a lunch with a friend of mine he now, by the way, runs one of the like, most successful caterings in Poland and he told me oh, you know what, I gotta do the keto diet to try, you know, because I have a lot of a lot of work to do and I was like, well, what's the keto diet has to do with you having a lot of work. So I was still a bit curious on that. And he told me well, I, you know, I don't have this brain fog, I can focus more, I'm better, I'm performing better, I have a lot of, you know, focus. And so I was super curious and since I was always into optimizing health and I was, you know, looking for ways to improve and be better and evolve, and you know, uh, so the next day I did was, uh was basically, you know, find everything out about keto diet. Funnily enough, my father knew about the keto diet before I did so. He read a book on that and he told me a couple of things. So I was like I called my sister she was, she lived in the US, uh, and I told her look, I need MCT, I need this, I need, I need this because I couldn't find anything here. And she shipped me. I had to pay customs, I had to pay duties and all that stuff. And then I was like, but I was supplementing this and I was super focused, I was super sharp.

Kamal: 3:01

We had a funny story. We were doing some real estate tour with one of my partners back then and he called me in the evening. We had a funny, funny story. We were doing some real estate tour with one of my partners back then and he called me in the evening. We took a whole day, like I don't know, 12 or 13 hours, of driving around looking for lands and everything, and he called me at the end of the day.

Kamal: 3:17

He's like look, I forgot my wallet in the car. Like I don't know, maybe you took it by mistake or whatever. And then I kind of like memorized the whole car and I told him look, it's on the left side, in in your door and it was. But but like like like go deep, because it's like somewhere hidden now, like like you know, like photographic memory of all the car interior. He was like okay, well, yeah, sure. And then he called me in five minutes. I was like I don't know if it's his keto or what, but it was fucking there, okay, uh, and and you know it's so. So that's how I started with the diet and I was like really, really, you know, because a lot of keto people are like freaks, you know they would tell you oh, keto is this?

Kamal: 3:58

keto is amazing, so. So I was in this like a freak mode level and telling everybody how amazing it is, uh, and then I thought, look, we need the products and you know there's no website with products. So what year was this, just for a little context, 2019., okay, 2019., yeah, so five years ago, yeah, quite five years ago, yeah, quite, yeah, quite some time already. And then I called my back then friend, but not a very good friend. I was like, yeah, look, because I had zero sense and knowledge on e-commerce, I was like nothing I did, like I had nothing to do with it. So I just basically knew that and I'd never even shopped online before, yeah, so I just knew that that obviously e-commerce exists, yeah, but but I had, I was like super, uh, not into it. So I knew that he was, uh, running a successful business, uh, online. And again I called him. He's like, yeah, sure, come over to my office. And after seven minutes, uh, he told me, yeah, yeah, let's, let's do it, uh, let's do this keto thing. But I suggest not to uh not do, um, uh, a shop like a multi-brand store, let's do a brand. And there was a. There was like a major shift in in in my uh thinking and then he also another major shift was uh was that he suggested to start in the uk, which was another uh, a big part of the um, of the of where we are uh today and uh and uh. So that's how it, that's how it started, uh, and basically he's not in the in the company anymore, uh, but he was. He gave me like a very fair way out, um and uh, but yeah, but he had definitely uh a big impact on, on, on on where we are today, and today we're, I would say, the number one uh keto brand in uk and europe, um, serving 22, 23 countries already.

Kamal: 6:04

It's like growing quite rapidly. I mean like maybe one market per month. It's something that we sometimes gain. So we have over 100 products, we have over 100 SKUs. We just got back from the trade show in London and people are like what the heck is this? How can you manage so many SKUs? Like you have guys snacks and you have foods and you have supplements and you have even medical devices. Like, who meant, who manages this? So, so, so over these four years cause it's a fourth birthday of the company we've managed to create over a hundred products gain 22 markets and a couple of other businesses that are on the side sort of, but all supporting each other and all in the same niche. So now, going from zero-ware in e-commerce, now I consider myself as quite of an expert on how to build stores, how to build shops, how to build platforms. We run seven or eight uh online stores already eight online stores so walk me through the, the first steps of building.

Janek: 7:16

So you had the idea of the, the keto diet, yeah, okay. And then you said, okay, the business side of it is the e-commerce. I'm going to run this online advertising when you come to this later. So what did you have to do yourself? Because obviously I'm assuming you had to kind of master the keto thing. So how long did it take you to become an expert? Let's put it like this why should I trust you and buy keto from you? Why?

Kamal: 7:44

let's put it like way should I trust you and buy keto from you. Look first of all so it might sound a bit like a cliche yeah, because you know there's a lot of people that would tell you this. Yes, start with passion, and you know you need to be passionate about what you do.

Janek: 7:59

We know these guys.

Kamal: 8:00

Yeah, you need to be passionate about what you do, but the fact is, I actually was passionate, like be passionate about what you do, and, but the fact is, I actually was passionate, like, truly passionate about keto and and uh, and obviously I was also very like I was an entrepreneur born and bred. So uh, so uh. This was this always. It's not enough to be passionate about something and then turn it into business this, this doesn't work like it. Yeah, so you need to what?

Kamal: 8:27

Why I was probably more better in keto than anything else was that I not only I believed in the diet and I believed in the lifestyle and, uh, you know, decreasing the carbohydrates. I was also always very, uh into healthy. This is where my background kind of is so uh, so uh. We also ran um magazines about health and you know, this was where I this was where I kind of grew up in the, in a sense that you know health is extremely important in your life, that this brings you, um, you know, a lot of like mental clarity and that you know the way that what you eat and how you eat and why you should eat certain foods and not and this kind of, you know, structured me in a way yeah, the small details.

Janek: 9:11

you mean like going really after every single detail to master the bigger picture.

Kamal: 9:15

Yeah, this kind of yeah, obviously, yeah, it's from the. You know that's where the little things, you know, they kind of add up to the grander kind of vision. And you know they kind of add up to the grander kind of vision. And you know I'm sometimes obsessing over small things, if you ask me. And the story that inspired me was when Steve Jobs' father, he was doing furniture and you know he took care of how the furniture looks from the back end, from the back side. You know, and, and that's why that's how steve jobs said it, this is why you know when you open ipad or you open iphone, that's why it's so neatly organized, yeah, all the things are in order and and and, and I think that you know in in terms of our brand, in terms terms of Bikito, one of the values that we have, my favorite one, is that everything needs to be sexy. But the sexy goes beyond only the branding. It goes what's inside, how, the clean label you put, the value, the end product.

Kamal: 10:22

It is very complex. I mean, on one hand it's just, I don't know, mct oil, but then the level of complexity that you need to control the supply chain, that you need to know what you put inside, that you need to know your suppliers, that you need to actually sometimes go and discuss and see the quality and do the quality check and everything. It's simple, but before it was really complex, you know. So Nietzsche would say everything is difficult until it becomes simple. And you know, importantly, you need to really, if you want to achieve something, if you want to do something very well, you need to really get into detail. You need to. So I had nothing on e-commerce. I knew nothing about. You know web design, web development. I only just knew how things should look like. I knew the, but I knew the front end. But now I can really work with my web developer. By the way, I'm saying hi, he's now in the States on vacation. Come back early, man, he needs you yeah, yeah.

Kamal: 11:34

On this 27th. You know it's still a couple more days, but we're dealing fine, we're doing okay. But you know, sometimes we sit, we sit until midnight and doing like corrections, and when we roll out a new website, we're doing okay, uh and but. But you know, sometimes we sit, we sit in until midnight and doing like corrections, and when we roll out a new website, we're doing okay, like this, you need, and he's and now he's calling me like look, you need to do the final touches. You know, yeah, and those are the outlines, those are the little things you know, and and. But the little things matter in the end I see.

Janek: 12:00

So let's talk about the keto diet. What are the basis? Because I know it got trendy back in. I heard about it, I think in 2017. I was also in my peak, you know, athlete performances, so I was trying a lot of diets, right, and I think I did try the keto diet.

Kamal: 12:19

It was very interesting and but I didn't stick with it because I was like man, I don't have the energy, so, but you don't have the energy in a way that the diet didn't provide you the energy, or you don't have the energy to stick with the diet, because those are two different things, uh to stick with the diet, okay, really, because maybe not energy, but uh like the, the passion, the desire to, to like.

Janek: 12:44

Okay, let's go. You know, sometimes I, you, need to be persistent, yeah, yeah so. So how can I stick to the diet? Well, there, yeah let's say monday. I want to start keto. What should I do? What are my first steps? Why, should I do it order?

Kamal: 13:01

order b keto catering. Do I get a discount for the viewers? Yeah, obviously.

Janek: 13:06

Yeah, friends, and so on. So I want you to convince me to start a B-Keto. I am on the edge to start a diet. You know summer is coming. I want to Okay look first of all.

Kamal: 13:16

Probably nothing is going to bring you quicker results than Keto. Okay, if you want to look good for the summer, then you're going to lose a lot of water. That means you're going to become much more shredded than you are and all the muscles are going to come out. So that's what happens in the very first stage you lose a lot of water so you're not puffy, you're shredded and your muscles become visible. It's funny. Obviously I'm not an athlete and I'm not very muscular, but I'm proportionate to you know I'm not working out too much, but I'm also working out every single day. You know I'm doing like 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, so I keep in shape. This is where, because I'm not working I'm not an athlete I work with my brain and with my muscles. So I'm not really very much obsessed over how I look, but I'm only doing this in order to feel good and what the keto will serve you it will bring you, within four to five weeks, you're going to become much more shredded, some muscles you're going to notice on apps that you haven't even seen before, you didn't even know they exist. So this is what, and it's going to be very interesting to see how your body, how your organism transforms from a little bit I'm not saying, by the way, don't take it personally but I was chubby. I never was fat, but I was chubby. I developed this belly and then, obviously, I didn't start keto to lose weight, but I started to optimize myself.

Kamal: 14:50

This was a side effect. Many people that want to, they're obese, that want to lose a lot of weight, that's a. It's a, it's like almost a magic pill keto. And it's a miracle that you know we've seen so many transformations, so many uh, so many people with so many kilograms. They're writing like they're eating on catering. It was like, yeah, god, we, I lost 20, 30 kilograms. Like they send us, you know, free of charge. They send us their uh transformation pictures. Crazy, you know how they're the huge metamorphosis of of people. This is not your case here, because you don't need to, you don't need to transform, but uh, but what you probably want is to feel better, is to understand that that, that uh, that you can do more and and I'm, I'm keto on and off. I'm not, you know, because I I'm like you know, traveling a lot and doing, doing a lot of like, traveling for business and then so. So sometimes it's quite unsustainable that that's what I meant, my question.

Janek: 15:56

It's really hard to stick to it because I travel and I go back to morocco and my mom is preparing this heavily carb, you know, incorporated. Yeah, I'll. Yeah, I was like I had.

Kamal: 16:07

I had. I had one time I had guests over from italy here. Yeah, uh, and you know I obviously took them to all the restaurants and everything was like, uh, yeah. And he said uh, and I told him after I spent a whole weekend together and I said, god, I need to go back to the keto diet now. That's what I said. And then he told me, yeah, and I need to go back to the keto diet now. That's what I said. And then he told me, yeah, and I need to go back to the carbo diet.

Janek: 16:27

The carbo diet. The carbo diet, I like it. I like that.

Kamal: 16:31

So, obviously, although you know, even if you eat out every single day, you can stick with the diet, you can stick with keto. Back then, when we didn't do the catering business so we didn't have Bikito catering and it's only available here in Poland I used to go out and eat out a lot. But you know, I have those little tricks. So when the waiter brings the bread, I don't say, like no bread, okay. Okay, because my favorite saying for diet is like, if you don't want to eat the cookie, then go to the kitchen, you know. And and if you're gonna look and for two hours sit at the table and the bread is gonna be there, like, are you going to take it? Do you have enough uh, willpower not to take it? I mean, I don't. So. So so I'd rather, I'd rather, like you know, cut everything, like you know, not to, not to have this temptation. So you go to a restaurant, you order a soup. You order a raw soup. Please, no noodles inside. Okay, and you're good, and you don't miss it.

Kamal: 17:32

You know, because keto, in fact I think it's like extremely like the variety of foods you have is so extreme. You know, you have so many different things that you can eat. Eat, you know, you just basically need to cut out carbs. And carbs is what? Pasta, pizza, macaroni and what else? Bread and bread, yeah and bread. But bread is amazing, but we do bread we have. We have, like in Bikido. We developed the line of you know we have a Bikido kitchen. We have, you know, tortilla bread, a big keto kitchen. We have. You know, interesting tortilla bread buns rolls. You know they taste the same.

Janek: 18:06

No, but they're good, they're good enough. Okay, I trust you.

Kamal: 18:09

No, no, no like like, uh, look, my point is in the company is like everything needs to taste good. Yeah, we just, we just started with the croissant, like as a new, uh, new product and uh, the aim was like how to make the croissant, my croissant, because you know, if you just make, if you just put the name on it, it doesn't make sense to even launch it yet because people are not going to like it. You need to like what you eat, and food was always a part of my like, kind of like a big part for me. So I know that things need to taste well and not only they have to be the healthiest alternative to like the regular product. So when I say we do pizzas, pizza bases, for example, this is the healthiest alternative to a pizza base. Yeah, obviously you don't need to be, you don't need to eat it to be keto. Be keto, yeah, it's a good one.

Kamal: 19:02

Came out naturally, because you know the concept is, what we promote is that you should eat clean, but obviously you want these treats, you want to eat a little bit of jam. So we give you, we provide you with the possibility to eat jam. That is virtually, like you know, 60% calories less and 80% carbs less, without the compromise on the taste. So so, if you really want to stick to the diet, it's not so hard. But you need to understand, you need to have this mentality like okay temptations, avoid them. Okay, it's like you know, you don't want to eat the cookies. Don't go to the kitchen. If you were't go to the kitchen. If you're in a shop, you know why. Go to the alley of where you find.

Janek: 19:47

Delicious chocolate calling your name yeah.

Kamal: 19:49

Nutella products yeah, or whatsoever.

Janek: 19:55

So how long can one like stick with the keto, like be on a keto? Is this a lifestyle like forever?

Kamal: 20:00

I would very much say it's a lifestyle forever, and I know personally know people that are doing the diet for 10 years and over now. So me, I'm like the little guy compared to them. One of our fitness coaches, ketolovershi Ketolovershi they're doing the diet for years now and again. They achieved this huge transformation from very like regular people to extreme athletes now and and and they're doing a very kind of atletic and and fitness lifestyle. That and and sustainable lifestyle. So so I would say that I'm not constantly doing keto. To be blunt with you, and people ask me like are you on keto all the time?

Janek: 20:50

Hey, you're keto yeah.

Kamal: 20:52

And I'm saying no, I'm low carb. I mean I believe in the philosophy, I stand behind it like 100%. But that doesn't mean you have to be extremely strict. That doesn't mean you have to. You're going to kill yourself if you're going to eat not be keto croissant from time to time I don't do it very often, but I do it like once every couple of months.

Janek: 21:21

Like cheat day. What's your take on the cheat day?

Kamal: 21:26

couple of months, yeah, like cheat day. What's your take on the cheat day? Very, very sly, because I, I don't feel you, after some time, after doing low carb or keto diet, you don't need this. You know you're not gonna look at, you know, I don't know a jar of chocolates and you're gonna eat it all. No, because you, you, you grow this distance to, uh, to the sweet taste, and you feel much more of flavors. You feel much, so at some point you get rid of the addiction to sweetness. You get rid of the addiction to sugar because we have to understand the big companies, uh, uh, the, the industry made us addicted to sugar and it's one of the, I would say, strongest and also worst addictions. I would even compare it with drugs Because, basically, you know, when you're doing sugar, you're in a rush.

Kamal: 22:15

You're doing, you know you're, and you only think about getting the next sugar spike. You're only thinking about eating the next cookie, next chocolate that will get you on the. You know that will put your glucose level higher. So you feel a little bit better for a little bit, for for a very short period of time. Then your, you know, the new insulin is produced, glucose goes down and you have to eat another bar in order to have this sugar rush. It's very much like cocaine. Okay, it's white on the way and not recommending that.

Janek: 22:48

So, okay, let's. Um, I'm a guy. You convinced me to do the keto diet. Now I'm convinced I'm ready to rock and roll. So what would you tell me? I'm going to obviously order from your company Be Keto. Okay, I'm going to go to the website.

Kamal: 23:03

I'm going to Appreciate it.

Janek: 23:04

I want to keep it in budget. I don't want to go nuts. I don't have a lot of money. Obviously, I want to be Be Keto. I want to get the most important product that will help me, support me in this. What should they do?

Kamal: 23:19

Talking on the supplements, kind of side Supplements yeah. Funnily enough, I just reviewed an article today on. The headline was how much does the keto diet cost?

Janek: 23:33

Oh, there you go.

Kamal: 23:34

Yeah, because I believe it's a very important issue. The keto diet cost. Oh, there you go, yeah and uh, and because I believe it's a very important issue. Yeah, like, well, people you know were super good on google and the search engine optimization and now I'm reading, by the way, a funny, very good book uh, they ask you.

Kamal: 23:46

Answer very simple philosophy on if your customers well, we talked a little bit about, uh, your brand, exactly so, if your customers ask questions, certain questions, you need to just simply answer and not answer in one sentence, but answer and elaborate your quote. So, you know, answer in big time. And so I think that a lot of people were asking obviously, I have. I backed this up with my SEO guy and we're now writing articles in poland, in germany, in uk so how much a keto diet cost and uh, and we are doing comparisons with all the other diets, all the basic diets, and uh, and we're answering this question. So you know, basically, it's no more expensive, it's no more fancy, it's no more. You know, it's not for rich people, or or you know, you need, you don't need, to make any level in order to be keto.

Janek: 24:41

I like how you're plugging your brand all the time you got to pay. Next time I'm not.

Kamal: 24:45

I'm not. I'm trying to avoid this. How to avoid the no.

Janek: 24:50

I'm kidding man, feel free, feel free.

Kamal: 24:52

It's the keto.

Janek: 24:53

It's your time, your show.

Kamal: 24:56

Finally, no, but look um. So if you go, if you go for supplements, uh, then probably like the, the, the must have would be mct oil, which is medium chain triglycerides oil. It's derived from coconut and this is the oil that goes directly to your liver and is transformed, not into it's not stored as fat, so it's transformed into energy. And the ketones, so your liver transforms it into ketones, so it provides like a stable energy for you. So, first of all, increases the level of ketones that circulate in your blood.

Janek: 25:32

And the oil does that Come again. This MCT oil does that. That's the role, because I see your Instagram stories. You're always putting it in your coffee in the morning, right?

Kamal: 25:40

A lot of people know me by this. Yeah, I was super shocked. Some of my friends were like, look, I was curious, what are you?

Janek: 25:49

adding to this Exactly.

Kamal: 25:52

I'm not doing this by the way anymore.

Janek: 25:53

I mean on stories stuff. I mean on stories, no, no, I do it, uh, I like everybody confusing, because when you gave me the, the samples that I took with me to morocco, yeah everyone was confused. It's like what is this man?

Kamal: 26:04

yeah explain.

Janek: 26:05

I was like you know, I don't know. I just see this guy do it in his coffee. Maybe put it in their coffee he looks okay you know, yeah, so that's why my question was to you like I want to start keto, what should I do? What supplement should I buy?

Kamal: 26:18

This MCT. I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of bulletproof coffee.

Janek: 26:22

But bulletproof coffee would be a substitute for a meal With butter. You put the butter thing, you put the butter.

Kamal: 26:26

And then, to really top it off and to really give it a kick, you put MCT inside. Oh, I see, and MCT, obviously there are a couple of variations. So to say so, there's powder, good for beginning. Powder does not upset your stomach. Then there's C8, c10, and the C it's the carbons in the MCT, in the carbon chains of the fatty acids. So the lower the number, the shorter the chains, and the shorter the chains, the more quickly absorbable by your liver, so the more quickly transformed into energy. To put it simply, so, the C8 or C, yeah, would be more ketogenic than the C10 because it's quickly absorbed.

Kamal: 27:18

But in order to really start, you should start with, you know, to get used to using this source of fat because it's a different. It's, it's not. It's like most of the fats are on the lct, so long chain triglycerides, so the. They have longer carbon chains and that means that they're either stored as fat, fully, partially, and not transformed into energy, and ca. It would be directly transformed into energy. So it would give you a high, like quicker boost of energy, but also a sustainable energy. So if you add this, add this to your coffee, uh, it's going to be a different sort of experience than what you have. If you put it into espresso and you have this instant kick of energy, then with MCT you will achieve like a more sustainable way, like you know, more stable energy Like a nice light, basically not a crush.

Janek: 28:10

I'm on it by the way now. Well, I can see. Are you sure? It's the only thing.

Kamal: 28:14

I am 100% positive are you sure it's the only?

Janek: 28:18

thing, I am 100 positive, so okay, we got the keto. I'm not eating any carbs. I'm eating, you know, proteins and sorry to interrupt you but, one misconception not eating any carbs.

Kamal: 28:29

Yeah, you don't have to be extremely like super maybe a little bit yeah there is, like certain amount of carbs that you can eat, depending on your lifestyle. If you train a little bit, you can go up to even 50, 60, 70 grams per day. So, in fact, you could even eat these two pieces of bread Interesting, and you can still maintain the keto lifestyle and be in ketosis, but isn't it like I'm a freak when it comes to performances?

Janek: 28:53

My mind is saying well, if I have a piece of bread, I'm not doing keto anymore. So I prefer to avoid it.

Kamal: 29:00

Then again that will really depend on your metabolic flexibility. So definitely I'm not going to encourage you to do it in the beginning, because in the beginning you should really focus on doing it very clean, getting used to it. You know, develop this med flex, so to say so, metabolic flexibility, where your organs can easily transform from one sort of energy to the other sort of energy. Because what keto ultimately is about is that it's a different way of energy that your organism uses. In your body there are two sort of main sources. One is glucose, that is essentially sugar and carbohydrates, and then there's fat, which is the more sustainable, better sort of source of energy. And this is where, if you're keto, if you're doing keto properly, you're in the state of ketosis. This is essentially the source of energy that your body, that your organism, is using. And if you develop this flexibility, this elasticity, so to say, you can easily switch, and it's also a good thing. So if you're on and off keto, then your body knows already that it can take the energy from ketones. And this is very much again, if we go deeper into the philosophy newborns they're in the state of ketosis when they're born. So we could even say that through our diet we intervene the state of ketosis because we're born in it.

Kamal: 30:40

If you look at, you know, from this perspective, and also you know why carbs are not so very great, yeah, it's roughly the past 200 years that you know the mass production of carbohydrates began. Yeah, it's the agricultural revolution that you know, the the mass wheat production uh, that came into place before when people were like long, long, long. For thousands of years, people were hunter gatherers. There were, you know they, and they definitely didn't eat five meals per day. They definitely didn't base uh their meals on uh on carbs, because there was no carbs production, large-scale, mass carbs production.

Janek: 31:19

Interesting. What about so? Okay, we got this, the diet going on the MCT oil. What else can I supplement with to help me achieve my 100%, 100%.

Kamal: 31:28

Another product would be electrolytes. Oh, and this is extremely trending product, not only for the low-carb, low carb and keto, but basically, you know, those are essential minerals in your body. So potassium, magnesium, calcium, and they are like super basic for your good functioning, for the good functioning, proper functioning of organism. We're now entering one of the largest chains of health stores in the Benelux, in Belgium, netherlands and Luxembourg, and the lady there she called me like look, I know that you, I heard you had these amazing electrolytes and we want to list them. And I said how did you hear? And she's like, I don't know. It's like it's been a thing in the community and we in Bikito, in our office, it's like everybody's drinking electrolytes every day. I'm so used to already all these supplements I'm taking 10 or 12 per day. Now it's crazy. Sometimes I'm taking pictures like look what? Now it's crazy like it's if I sometimes I'm taking pictures like look what I'm doing, like 100 million euro, 100 year old man, yeah, uh, uh, looks funny.

Kamal: 32:43

Yeah, because like all the meds, and then the girls bringing me like the full plate of, of, uh, of, of, of supplements, but like I'm really, you know, testing everything myself. I'm really testing everything myself, I'm really truly in this and doing everything. First, the trials are on myself always. And probably you could say but how do you know it works, how do you know you're healthy? And obviously I'm doing regular checkups now, but I didn't for a long time. And I did a massage and it was like some, some guy from bali, and he was, you know, he was touching my leg and he was like, oh, look, look, and he's like you need to check your cholesterol levels. And then I thought, wait a minute, you know, maybe like I'm not sure, like exactly what did he feel?

Kamal: 33:33

yeah, what did he feel touching my, my, my leg. But then I thought, okay, maybe he has some, like you know, like oriental traditional medicine, like exactly like how, what did he feel? Yeah, what did he feel touching my leg? But then I thought, okay, maybe he has some like you know, like oriental traditional medicine. You know knowledge and maybe you know, maybe you could actually feel it.

Kamal: 33:48

And then you know, I do a lot of these oils and you know high-fat diet and maybe you know, maybe it's a sign that I should really go. And then I went and did the ldl and hdl cholesterol is perfect. And I said, okay, it was like basically and and it was after like three or four years of supplementing mct every day and you know, doing all the uh high fat, you know killing uh uh trans fat intakes and all that and and basically it turns out, you know I'm perfectly fine, yeah, more than fine, yeah, with the like perfect proportion of hdl cholesterol to ldl, so the good cholesterol to to the quote, unquote bad cholesterol. So so when I, when I'm telling you something about the diet, I, I, I went through it all.

Kamal: 34:31

Yeah, I I'm talking from my but also, obviously, we're a company that has this begged by science approach. So you know we have, we have people with PhDs that are working with us and, by the way, say hi to our Natalia, so so you know, so she's developing recipes. You know we do. We're now she's now our amazing like scientists are working with us. She's now our amazing scientist working with us. She's doing, I think, one of the biggest studies, research studies in the world regarding keto with university, and you know she put basically 80 women on the keto diet 40 on the keto diet and 40 on the standard diet. We were the provider for the catering.

Janek: 35:18

Was this in Poland?

Kamal: 35:19

Yeah, we were the provider of catering for eight weeks and now she's researching exactly how their organism, how much weight they lost, what changes the women go through, and everything. What changes the women go through and everything. So I believe in testing everything myself, but the science is there.

Janek: 35:43

Interesting. So let's answer the $1 million question how much does the keto diet cost?

Kamal: 35:51

Per month, Per month yeah.

Janek: 35:52

To do keto yeah With supplements.

Kamal: 35:56

Okay, I'm going to spin this per month. Yeah, to do keto. Yeah, how much do you with supplements? Okay, I'm gonna like a little bit like spin this. So how much? How much do you spend on food?

Janek: 36:02

on food in general, like the one I eat, or yeah I don't know like even counting going out and stuff, or just yeah, everything I don't know like like a thousand euros.

Kamal: 36:17

Yeah. So there you go. This is the answer. Like the keto would cost you exactly the same less, more or less, yeah than every other diet that you do With going out and with not going out Because essentially you cut out carbs. Carbs are cheap, yeah.

Janek: 36:34

Because you know bread is relatively cheap.

Kamal: 36:37

But I assume you don't eat bread breakfast, lunch and dinner, Do you?

Janek: 36:41

No, I do actually intermittent fasting. I start eating around 1 pm, so do I. Yeah, it's good, and I was just getting out of Ramadan, which is a hardcore intermittent fasting. It's like full fasting.

Kamal: 36:53

I never knew you did actually Ramadan. You should try that.

Janek: 36:55

No water, no coffee, no MCT oil.

Kamal: 36:57

in the morning on Instagram I actually did religious fasting, so I'm familiar with the concept of not eating for a couple of days and you know why all the religions do fasts. It was basically you know. Obviously there is, you know, the cleansing mental and internal cleansing of the head, but it's also cleansing of the body, and basically all the major religions, including Judaism and Islam and Christianity, they all have fasts. It's a process of, you know, body cleansing and mental cleansing.

Janek: 37:39

And I feel like just it became trendy recently with the social media.

Kamal: 37:43

Yeah, the IF or the fasts.

Janek: 37:45

The fasts in general. Yeah, all right. So let's go back to the business side of things, because I know that Keto is in 22 markets.

Kamal: 37:58

Yeah, as we speak, as we speak. Maybe something changed the last time.

Janek: 38:04

I checked and I'm going to put a spin on it personally, because I once reached out to you and I said look, man, I love what you're doing. Let's try to do this in Morocco.

Kamal: 38:12

Yeah, I remember.

Janek: 38:13

You gave me some samples. I went there and started making calls. Morocco yeah, you gave me some samples. I went there and started making calls. But boy oh boy, the working with the government and all the stuff, like everyone, was saying well, you know, you can't do that here because you have to get that certificate. You got that. And then you have the big distributors. They're like no, you know, it was a mess. And I, yeah, it is a hustle. I was like oh boy, I'm not cut for this, so how do you do that?

Kamal: 38:41

Because you started in Poland. No, you started in the UK Simultaneously.

Janek: 38:43

How do you go after the other markets?

Kamal: 38:47

Look, obviously it's now from my perspective, my point of view it's now easier to go into new markets than it was before. But we primarily started as a direct-to-cons. We started with our own own e-commerce web stores and it all got from there. So, uh, so all the distributors, all the you know, all the other markets, basically we, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm making this because, um, it's a kind of like internal joke. Uh, in our company, it's like we never reach out to clients.

Janek: 39:19

Okay, I see what you mean.

Kamal: 39:21

Yeah. So I told my team we were at the trade show in London in natural organic products just this weekend and I told them yeah, I know, guys, I know it's like a bit of an unusual situation for you that we but at the trade show, that's we reaching out, not clients reaching out to us. So we I know it's unusual because we're used to, you know getting emails like please, I want to be your distributor, please, like, and sometimes we don't even answer, which is not a good thing, by the way and now we're reaching out. So now we're at the level that we know we need to also move because you know how it works.

Janek: 40:02

Like if you do this, follow this, it's gonna work.

Kamal: 40:05

Yeah, I believe yeah and and uh.

Janek: 40:08

So you're because you, because you're talking about a little bit about the administrative part of, yes, the complexity and both it's like okay, here's the thing, I'm also in the e-commerce space and I it's almost I want to say that I've been doing it wrong in poland, because and I just realized why because there's like a different mentality, different. You know logistics. I would say, yeah, like, do you send spies? Let's say, say what's your second? Like you have Poland, the UK. What's the other market, the third market, germany, germany. So how did you? Because I know personally that Germany is also a very specific e-commerce market. You know they need their own. You know payment methods. Which is this? What is it called? Epay or something like that.

Kamal: 40:52

Yeah, paypal is big, paypal is super big, yeah, and so these, these little things.

Janek: 40:57

In poland we have blick, which you don't think, I don't have you, we don't have in other countries, and yeah, because it's a polish. So these little things do you send a spy in the markets? How do you do it? Yeah, I'm the spy man, I mean uh but you know, my question is like yeah, how do you yeah the nuances?

Kamal: 41:14

yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, because, like you, you you rightly pointed out that there's like little nuances of of each market and you need to really, in order to, you know, because I would say, we're a small, global company yeah, small, but global on, so on, an international, so on. On one hand, we're, you know, we're just, we have this startup mentality and we're just, you know, small niche brand, but, on the other hand, you know, we're just, we have this startup mentality and we're just, you know, small niche brand, but, on the other hand, you know, we turn millions and we are in 20 couple markets. Yes, so, so, um, so we need to really understand this and we need to really properly do our research, just like the big company, just like the big pharma, if we go to germany, we can't really, you know, uh, we need to understand the nuances, the specificity of the market. So, for example, you asked me the million-dollar question how much is the keto diet? And basically, this is based on our research is that these are the type of questions, the type of queries that Germans ask in their Google search. So that's why we write this article for Germany specifically, and you need to really understand what are you dealing on the market.

Kamal: 42:24

So in Czech Republic, for example, they're still very big on cash and delivery and you know, in the beginning I didn't want cash and delivery there. I was like, yeah, what's cash and delivery? What is it? 70%? You said yeah, wow. So then I realized was like, yeah, what's cash on delivery? 70 percent, yeah, yeah, so, so, so. So then I realized like nobody's buying like and and and and, you know, um, obviously it can take some time to understand the, the complexities and, uh, you know the local, uh, but, but you need to get there. Well, it's simple yeah, buy. You can't really figure this out without doing the trials, without trying, without seeing how the business is looking. Is Google Pay popular? Is Apple Pay popular? It's like market research.

Kamal: 43:14

Yeah market research. If you go to Bleak now in poland, yeah, for example, if you don't have bleak, you screw it, yeah yeah, exactly by the way. It's an amazing solution and my opinion is that you know it's gonna really roll out uh to other european countries, because it's a polish, yeah it is, it is, it was, it was uh uh, the initiative of of uh pko the bank, uh pko bp. Interesting and rolled out onto other banks.

Janek: 43:38

Because that's why I said I was doing e-commerce in Poland wrong, because we didn't even have Blick and we had only, like, credit cards, PayPal, etc. Etc.

Kamal: 43:47

You were Shopify right.

Janek: 43:48

Yeah, yeah.

Kamal: 43:49

It sucks for Poland.

Janek: 43:50

Yeah, exactly, I started with.

Kamal: 43:52

Shopify as well, because I didn't know any other.

Janek: 43:54

But now were you running WordPress, yeah. Interesting WooCommerce, yeah, and how is that working?

Kamal: 44:05

Well, you know it's much more complex in a way of running. But ever since I started I knew I don't want to be only a food brand or supplements brand. I knew I wanted the tech vibes, the customization yeah, and the customization. So one of my very first employees was actually a web developer and it was quite funny because, you know, there were like four of us in the company and one of the guys was a web developer and usually, you know, companies much bigger size don't even have this. But I was. I had this, you this, but I was tech savvy and I had this ambition to do things a little bit different. So now I believe that we're a marketing company, in fact, a very sustainable company. We can create videos, we can create content, we can do websites, we do everything in-house Interesting. This is our like strong suit.

Janek: 45:02

So this brings me to my next question, which is how to scale an e-commerce business. Somebody is listening to us now and is like oh, I have this crazy idea, I'm passionate about it. I'm going to build a website, Like building an e-commerce and even having this first sale. It's pretty easy these days. All you gotta do you know. But how to take it to the next level. What did you do to take keto to the next level and how did you scale the business?

Kamal: 45:28

uh, very uh, I would say this is the million dollar question.

Janek: 45:34

Wow, the one billion dollar, yeah, yeah.

Kamal: 45:37

Hopefully. Amen, yeah, but definitely, you know there's no straight up, simple answer. So it's very niche specific and you know you would have to really we would have to really, you know, understand where is this somebody. We would have to really understand where is this somebody. But where my sort of idea goes is that you need to really find the niche. You need to do the proper research for the niche. So when we started with Quito, we did the keyword research. We saw the trends if people are actually searching for it, and it turns out that a year ago it was 20K per year searches and then this year it was 120K. So growth was tremendous. And then when you understand that it's not only idea, that there are actually real people asking for the real solution, then you can start with the right passion, with the right team, then you can provide the solution. So that's how Bikido came about. Then the collagen company that we're now launching and is now kind of trending is also.

Kamal: 46:48

The idea is very simple A niche product, a niche brand again collagen powerhouse. We focus everything on a niche product, but again a product that is trending. The product is growing, that we know that people are using collagen, that they want the most absorbable forms of supplementation and everything, yada, yada and, and so, once you actually understand that you want to do, you want to go into the to the business. Okay, you have a product. You have the service yeah, it could be service as well.

Kamal: 47:17

You do the initial research, the keyword research, the base, understanding whether it's going. You know whether it actually makes sense, whether there are people, there are clients out there, customers that are waiting for and looking for, searching for your product. And then, once you go there, you start a website. You can use one of the. You know the mainstream there. You start a website, you can use one of the mainstream platforms. You can do something custom depending on your budget, depending on where you are in your life, and you know, and start the sales. So we were very big on Google from. You know, from basically day one, organic or Paid ads, paid ads. We were very big by my and, by the way, yulia, thank you for a lot of you know from basically day one, organic or Paid ads, paid ads. We were very big.

Janek: 48:00

And, by the way, yulia, thank you for a lot of You're shouting a lot of your brand. I can see that you are a good team leader.

Kamal: 48:06

You know I'm doing a lot of work myself, but the team is the. You know the team makes the dream work. The teamwork makes the dream work. I really believe this. And you know she's been with me and I'm not tough and she's been with me from almost the very beginning and we just recently had a company party. She's like 4 am in the morning and she tells me look, now we know we're looking at the numbers and see this, but you remember we were basically nothing that's beautiful, yeah, and and she's like now we're talking about we need to double up every year, but like we're, we didn't. Well, she's like n, literally we did. We don't do double year to year. Remember where we were. Remember we were doing like 50k a month, 100k a month. I was like, yeah, so, so, so if you could take all the years, it's not double every year, it's much more so. And this is our like, like kind of exponential yeah, it's, it's very exponential.

Kamal: 49:03

This is kind of like business goal to to really like grow double year to year and and you know, some people would say that this is a lot and therefore, you know, but I would say it's different from you know scaling up from 1 million to 2 million and it's very easy. Then complexity is from 10 to 20, 20 to 40. And I don't know this yet Yet From 100 million to 200 million. But I think that this is where the big game starts.

Janek: 49:32

So how do you scale technically speaking? Is it because you mentioned the beginning of the 100 SKU? Is that a way?

Kamal: 49:38

Definitely, definitely Look. One of the ways is to grow on your product line, product portfolio. This is one way. Then you need to also grow on your existing line, and when I was in talks with with one of the big, big business owners, also from the very same sort of you know sector and industry I will later tell you I'm talking about was very famous person. He asked me. He asked me so look, where's his growth coming from? Is it from you adding new products or is it from growing on the existing products? And back then I actually didn't know. So I started checking and I started obsessing about not only adding, because it's quite easy, add, add, add, add, add, but at some point it needs to end. Also, managing the 100K SKU portfolio requires that we have a full-time production manager and logistics and everything.

Kamal: 50:37

It's quite tough, believe me, and I did this all by myself at some point, and I'm not very good at Excel and I'm not very good at doing the tables, so I had to memorize all of this. And when you have 40 suppliers, 100 SKUs, and then it's all in your head, it's kind of like you know, like sometimes you don't really remember like wait, wait, where's this jar?

Janek: 51:00

coming from.

Kamal: 51:02

So you need to really have everything in order and obviously I have this mindset of building a corporation, so I don't want to be the backbone, so I don't want to be this micromanagement CEO that you know people go to like should I buy this coffee or this coffee? Like I hate these questions. Yeah, and a lot of people, especially here in Poland, they're like they have this mentality like I need to control everything. I actually preferred not to control everything, but I still have a long way to go to learn not to, because probably most of my coworkers would tell you you're obsessed about the little.

Kamal: 51:52

Yeah, and taking a look and checking everything, but I'm learning not to. I'm learning to give a lot more freedom and I'm look and checking everything, but I'm learning not to. Yeah, I'm learning to give a lot of, like, more freedom, and I'm learning to give space, because people are actually great, yeah, and they do have their you know power, and once you let them, they go with it. So I know I'm I haven't answered the question no, no, we will come in, you know, but you know the scaling. So, from my perspective, it was Doubling, doubling up, doubling up, doubling up on their budget, doubling up every month.

Kamal: 52:26

I'm gonna budget every month. Every month, add more, add, more and more. I was asking you, I was like Talking to you, yeah, where we were, like she was my for one of the first, like four fifth employee, uh, I took her from google, uh and uh and uh, and she and, and I was like can we spend more?

Kamal: 52:45

he said no, like why, like put more money in this? So I was the other like people, when the other like people when they run businesses, they want to cut down on marketing and they're like if things are going south, everybody's like cut down the marketing expenses. You know, this is first budget. I think for me it would be last budget. Thank God I don't have this Mentality and I haven't had this situation that I had to cut down on something and I haven't had this situation that I had to cut down on something, because you know, we're in a very comfortable situation where we're privately funded, we don't have any investors, we don't have backing and we were like 100% private company about external financing and we're profitable basically from day one.

Kamal: 53:29

And this is a very different situation from where you have to answer to external funds and banks and this and that and rely on that and you have to show. But I wanted to actually expand. Obviously we had to monitor ROAS. We needed to monitor if we're profitable, if the sale that we're making makes sense, if we're making enough to spend that much. But now we really went from zero to millions spending ads per year.

Janek: 54:06

Because, from my own experience, especially in the corona days, when I had the same mentality, because I kind of got a little bit greedy and I was seeing the sales coming in okay, we're making 100k a day, yeah and I was like me too. I was like let's put more money put, and at some points we broke the machine, so we were spending more than we were making and I refused to give up because it was like gambling to me. You know, I was like I used to have this five or six, seven, ten sometimes but, then I am down now to three 2.5.

Janek: 54:43

You know it start to, so it's almost like I burned my audience. Do you have similar problems?

Kamal: 54:51

uh, burned in a way that you showed them too much of the ads.

Janek: 54:55

I think so because I couldn't. I think this is for me how I had my in our brand, this pivotal moment, that at some point I just said you know what we're stopping this it's not it's not working anymore, but also it has the. It was the era where Facebook introduced this 14 thing, ios, when Apple actually started, you know, because the ads they just stopped working. I mean, they still deliver, but it was like 2.5, 1.5 for OS.

Kamal: 55:22

Yeah.

Janek: 55:23

And it was just not worth it anymore and we had to stop and just go the organic way. And it was a very heavy lesson for me because I was behind the campaigns and I remember it was like almost legit gambling because I refused to give up All this cash flow we had in the bank. I was throwing it at Facebook Like please give me my three ROAS, and I almost killed the company because of my refusal to accept a lower os.

Kamal: 55:58

And this is when I went but from my perspective, my point of view, with your margins, and then I kind of understand, like your, uh, your business, uh uh. I think row s 3 would make you good enough.

Janek: 56:11

Yeah, but to go from 7 to 3 is heartbreaking too, and I can proudly say I'm not a businessman, you're an entertainer.

Kamal: 56:23

man, You're an entertainer.

Janek: 56:26

We're doing this podcast, guys.

Kamal: 56:28

No, but I literally was thinking who is Kamal? And I think that you could really easily say you're an entertainer and this is a big thing, I know, but you need to capitalize on that and everybody needs to find their niche and their voice and I think that this is a very cool way, like with these podcasts. When I saw it for the first time, I was like, yeah, this is a good way for him, right. And look, when you're going from seven to three, obviously probably I would probably think that something is wrong. I would probably start searching and obsessing over this and and and, not really putting more money yeah, and seeing and and and burning more.

Kamal: 57:16

No, I would, uh, I would definitely go for uh, understanding, like, what's happening. But it's funny because you know these, these huge corporations like google and meta, uh, uh, they exactly know play on that yeah yeah, and and you know, now I see, now I see, like, like, how well they know the margins of our businesses.

Janek: 57:37

Yeah.

Kamal: 57:37

Because what they give us, for example, in catering business, that the ROAS that we get there, is uncomparably higher to the ROAS that we get in the supplement business, because they know. But that's only because they know that the margins on the catering are very low. Yeah, so, so, so it's crazy when you think about it and it is that they actually complete. It's like somebody like you know, imagine if I were, if I were behind this and you called me. It's like look, can you, can you increase my rs?

Kamal: 58:09

I was like yeah sure come on, no problem, like I'm gonna to push the button.

Janek: 58:14

And that's basically what they do. I knew it, man. I had a feeling.

Kamal: 58:17

That's literally what they do. And now I had a feeling but now I have a foolproof understanding of this because I can see this with different businesses that we advertise it kind of explains what happened to us, because it has this.

Janek: 58:32

We were selling this, you know mosaic masks and it was very because people nobody was saying you know fancy masks? I was doing it and, like I said, we were making 100K a day and I think I feel like someone at some point say no this fucker is making too much money Enough.

Janek: 58:51

And I was hooked because this is one of the biggest lessons I had in 2020. Is I was hooked to the feeling of what I, and I'm sure you have the same feeling. We are in the e-commerce space. When we are sleeping, we are making money, and I love to wake up in the morning and see, ah, because I was selling to the US market, you know to Asia.

Janek: 59:14

So I sleep, I'm making money and it's the great. I was waking up at 5 am, no alarm required, and isn't like I was at that time with my ex and she would like the fuck man go? Like, what are you doing? I'm like nope, I gotta see my screens and I have these fancy screens. I miss the corona days. I mean it's you know. I'm like I was like this campaign is bringing seven rowers. Let's put more money here. And it was a wonderful time for the likeness brand until this july 2020.

Janek: 59:39

Someone said nah maybe you need to, like you need, to dig deeper into who it was, but well, you know, when you say this, I never thought about it this way, like they know about the margins, but they definitely don't For sure, for sure, they know more than you think they know, it's heartbreaking, man, yeah, but you know, it's like.

Kamal: 1:00:02

This is black and white, crystal clear for me that they do, because you know why certain industries get more and certain? Simply because there's no other answer. Yeah, why cosmetics have low ROAS? Because there's, because the margins of cosmetics are very high. So these companies are like, okay, you guys aren't gonna be okay, you're gonna do just enough money.

Janek: 1:00:26

Yeah, yeah, they're controlling us.

Kamal: 1:00:28

They're controlling us, they're controlling small medium enterprises through, in fact, monopolies and, frankly, they call us partners. They invite my company to their offices. They're like come to Dublin, come here, and then we feel cool about it because we spend millions. And then we feel cool about it because we spend millions. But you know, it's kind of like we are forced to do it, but also I'm really glad that we can do it. So it's a funny situation. So to say so.

Janek: 1:01:07

what's your breakdown on ads? Is this more Google? Is this more Meta? Facebook, instagram, influencers, influencers, not so much. What's your?

Kamal: 1:01:12

breakdown on ads.

Janek: 1:01:13

Is this more Google? Is this more Meta Facebook, instagram? Was it influencers?

Kamal: 1:01:15

Influencers not so much. This is not really my thing, so probably in another direction that we're going to develop. Also, a lot of laws that changed. So now influencer marketing is not so amazing as it was before and I know a lot of companies that really grew on that tremendously. But I know that this of companies that really grew on that tremendously. But I know that this market changed.

Kamal: 1:01:34

I didn't have the chance to capitalize on that, maybe because I was too much in the niche market so there were no influencers in my business, in my area, in my space. So I was. I was typically the Google guy, so I was like Google ads all the way. And I was, you know, because I would compare Google to and and Facebook to you know, like as if you shot a shotgun and it would be Facebook ads, and then when you're a sniper, and that would be Google ads and I'm more of a like a sniper. So I would reply. I would probably answer the questions that people ask um, uh, so, and and directly target them.

Kamal: 1:02:09

But now we're both and now we know, like all the channels, like a multi-channel marketing. So, uh, so now we're both and now we know, like all the channels, like a multi-channel marketing. So so now we're betting big on on on email, for example, and, and, and, and we again we have this idea of doing everything in-house. So so everything is again, everything is with my marketing team, with with my, my guys that at doing in the ads, my guys at doing the ads, my guys doing the emails and everything, and this is the way I like it. You know, and I hate to say it, but the agency screws up always.

Janek: 1:02:45

I feel your pain, my friend. I feel the pain.

Kamal: 1:02:48

And you know I also run the agency before.

Janek: 1:02:51

Okay, so you know how it goes.

Kamal: 1:02:52

So I know how to screw people up and I hate to do it you know I I also run the agency before, okay, so you know how it goes. So I know how to screw people up now and I hate it to do it. You know I hate to do it and and and I'm, I'm. I try to be like extremely honest and like very, like transparent in business and I don't screw people up and I try to be like very, you know, I'm like I don't think anyone can can literally say that oh, he's a dick, yeah, he screwed me over. I really have this genuine feeling that I didn't do it to anyone and I also can say that from the other end, I also don't feel like I was screwed up or cheated from somebody else. Maybe I'm not letting this in, but I feel that if you have this kind of mutual, mutual, both way trust, and you give a lot from yourself and you don't screw people, they're not going to screw you.

Janek: 1:03:49

Like doing good things in the world. So I want to switch gear here and talk about a little bit of the social dynamics. The other day I was listening to this podcast, uh, with the founder of spotify, and he said, um, that around the age of 22 here he retired and then he bought the ferrari, got the you know, the fancy house and everything, and then start noticing that his social circle of people are just people. Actually, what he said is the girls. He said I got the girls I want, but not for the good reasons, because they were after something. So, as a successful CEO, young and pretty, Not so young anymore.

Kamal: 1:04:32

I turned 30, my friend.

Janek: 1:04:33

It's nothing, man, you're still a baby. I wasn't the birthday Good party.

Kamal: 1:04:38

It was a good party. It was a big party.

Janek: 1:04:40

Yeah, so do you. How do you deal with this? Because I have my fair share of this and the most depressing thing was for me is when I, from Monday to Thursday, nobody is asking about me, but on Fridays and Saturdays my phone is blowing up.

Kamal: 1:04:55

Everyone wants to go out.

Janek: 1:04:57

Everyone wants to sit at my table in the fanciest club, in the VIP, and every Monday hungover. I would think and it's like nobody is asking me I have the wrong friends.

Kamal: 1:05:10

Wait, weren't you just doing the Ramadan and now you tell me to drink alcohol? Let's tell my mom hey, this is going to be censored.

Janek: 1:05:16

I'm talking about the previous era, ah, okay, before.

Kamal: 1:05:20

And Ramadan is over, so Like I would always like talk to people, like in south of France, for example, and during the holidays. So what are you drinking now? So, like Allah doesn't work over Europe.

Janek: 1:05:34

That's a good one. I would say that next time, or Allah sleeps at night. It's night, you know Allah sleeps.

Kamal: 1:05:40

You need to you know.

Janek: 1:05:42

Allah doesn't have, you know, coverage in Europe.

Kamal: 1:05:44

Yeah.

Janek: 1:05:44

Especially in Poland. Land of vodka.

Kamal: 1:05:47

It's a dark spot here, so yeah, how?

Janek: 1:05:49

It's a dark spot here. So yeah, how do you deal with that? Because I'm curious, like at your level of success.

Kamal: 1:05:58

You have the entourage. I wouldn't want to probably like overboast or overestimate the level of success that I've achieved. I mean, I consider myself as obviously reasonably successful and, uh, probably more well off than uh majority of society and probably the vast majority of people my age. But then again, you know, there are people tremendously more successful, tremendously smarter, uh, more you know handsome. There are people who are tremendously more successful, tremendously smarter, uh more you know handsome or bright, and it was like my father used to always tell me look, there is always somebody who's smarter, richer, funnier and better looking than you, and then this is. Then this is very, um, and this is very much true. Yeah, and uh, and I never like really pay attention to those things, like whether somebody's like doing this for me or for some other reasons. Yeah, I mean, I truly believe that obviously it's a very touchy subject.

Janek: 1:07:08

Yeah, because you know, let me help you answer the question okay how do you? I call them parasites. You know, when you have money they are around, when you don't, they are not around. How do you deal with parasites? Because we come from the pretty much the same social, where we have the same social circle here in warsaw. We hang out at the same places restaurants, clubs and we all know these people. You know they are like.

Janek: 1:07:35

You know what? How do you keep distance? I'm saying this because our episode it was about boundaries. We talked a lot about boundaries how you keep that, you protect.

Kamal: 1:07:44

Yeah, you know what I think because you know a lot of people know me here.

Janek: 1:07:49

Yeah, exactly.

Kamal: 1:07:50

Yeah, like, and I but and I'm very like, nice to everyone and very friendly and very but also I really hang out with a handful of people. Yeah, I don't really. I don't really go out and make friends. Yeah, I don't really go out and, you know, talk with everyone and I would say hi, hi, and I would hug and I would be like very cool, but I'm really, in fact, a very private, you know, small circle kind of person and that is not because I'm afraid of, you know, of somebody taking advantage, just the way I am. It's just that I don't feel like I like I have friendships for years, yeah, and people that are with me, they're with me like for half my life or whatsoever. And the point is that I was always a little bit like, luckier perhaps than others, than others, and uh, and I never have this um idea that somebody's with me because of some uh advantages or so maybe I'm a little bit naive, but I don't really see this. You know I, so you're not suffering from this.

Janek: 1:09:05

I'm not, I'm definitely not suffering you're doing something good, you gotta share, because every successful person has this problem, because I know I talk with a lot of CEOs and you know founders- yeah and they're like. They are all lonely and alone and they're like man. All what you want is some real friends and I say I share your pain.

Kamal: 1:09:23

We all go through this yeah, I would say it's a little bit lonely at the top. That is true, yeah, uh and uh, and, like I said, I don't have, uh, I don't, I don't hang out with everyone. I don't hang out with, like you know, uh, uh, hundreds of people, and it's definitely not me, uh, although, uh, if you actually think about it, and you uh look at me and and, and you know me, yeah, so you know me personally. So you would say what? What is he saying? What is he talking?

Janek: 1:09:52

about. It's like he goes in and says hi to everyone.

Kamal: 1:09:55

But in the real life, in fact, I'm very focused on a small group of people that I'm hanging with, so I don't have also time. I can't really. I'm working basically I wouldn't say 16 hours because it's not true but I'm really focused on developing the businesses and I prefer to focus on the people I'm really attached to, on the really close group of friends, really spend time with my sister and then brother-in-law, and if I even do it because I often don't even do it, because I'm quite a type of a loner, in a way that I'm feeling amazing when I'm lonely- I'm feeling amazing when I do my meditation and when I do my routine.

Kamal: 1:10:45

I just basically recently stopped going out with a girl and then today in the morning I did the meditation. I was like wow, I haven't done this for so long, like like because because you know, because my routine is very bizarre, I wake up early, then I do workout, then I and you know, I literally you literally need to live with somebody, uh to for them to adopt this routine. But if you do it on and off and you share houses and everything, it's not going to work. So I don't have this social problem that I feel like somebody's taking from me. I'm also much of a giver. I like to invite people like I don't really feel that you know somebody's draining my energy or my money, or you know we go out and I pay and it's like that. I, I do it from my side heart. I, I do it because I like it. Yeah, I don't do it. I also probably do it more for me than for them. Again, from the ego centric point of view.

Janek: 1:11:53

So why do all this? What's the end goal here? Why are you? What are this double growth and where are you going with this?

Kamal: 1:12:01

What's your ultimate goal? Well, hopefully, financially.

Janek: 1:12:08

No, I mean in all aspects, because I think I can help you here a little bit in the answer. I'm doing all this because all what I want is have the good time with the people I love, which is my family, and close friends?

Kamal: 1:12:20

That sounds like a cliche brother.

Janek: 1:12:22

I know, I know, but it is the truth. There's no happy moment I would be is when I am traveling or with the close people I love. I just want to spend time with them, and that's it.

Kamal: 1:12:36

Look this I think, I think I think this is the ultimate goal of life, yeah, uh, uh, but obviously it's better to start and it's nicer to spend time in nice places, in traveling a nice way, and you know, this is just nicer, uh, and and, and I think, I think that what's most important, what gives you most, most, most happiness, is the sense of freedom.

Kamal: 1:13:03

And, and the sense of freedom is is because, even if you have a very successful business, sometimes you are so tied to it that you don't have this freedom. And this may be a little bit where I am, uh, so I don't really enjoy too much freedom in my life. And and probably, if the end goal would be, uh, if you ask me about like the end goal, yeah, it would be like complete freedom, uh, freedom of going anywhere. I want freedom of spending time with whoever. I want, freedom of driving anything. I want freedom of wearing whatever I want, of not having to deal with, uh, um, you know, issues of choosing one or the other, uh, and also having time on my hand that I can use whenever I want, because you know, I come from a background that my family is very much entrepreneurial and, like my grandfather, he's 88 and he recently retired.

Janek: 1:14:07

Recently retired, yeah, recently retired. God bless him.

Kamal: 1:14:09

Yeah, and he had like clubs with bowling and all that and he was like billiards and then slot machines and all that and he closed it, I don't know, a couple years ago, but then he was, you know, he was bored so he had to, you know, do something. So he, at least he bought some apartments and now, you know, is dealing with this, you know, uh, is dealing with this, you know, but also I believe that. So I never want to retire, I hope, because because when you retire you die when you retire a little dramatic, but I know what you mean spiritually, spiritually, yeah, spiritually, and with your and and your head dies because you don't have.

Kamal: 1:14:46

You don't have things anymore. Yeah, you don't have to you, you don't have. You don't need to remember anything, I'll tell you a quick story about that.

Janek: 1:14:52

Recently, my father last year came out of retirement. He was an engineer and I saw him dead and he was the most miserable person I've ever seen. And just recently he was, like fuck this retirement, I am back. And now he's back because Morocco is going to organize the World Cup in 2030. And he has this great project with the company he was working for building the biggest stadium in the world. It will be, and he's alive.

Kamal: 1:15:19

Look at the vision he has now.

Janek: 1:15:21

He lost one year in retirement.

Kamal: 1:15:23

Yeah, but look at the perspective now. Yes, he has something to look forward to and obviously family is great. But a man is a man. A man needs things going. You know, going, You've got to do things.

Janek: 1:15:33

A woman also too.

Kamal: 1:15:34

yeah, but I mean, this is something that you know you need to be active mentally in order to not so, you see, your father now has an amazing like five years to come of thinking of visualizing, of, you know, like solving issues and that are going to definitely come up and then and and this is something, this is something that I believe you know if you, if you don't plan on retirement because you know a lot of people like like everyday average like employees is like 60 I want to retire. What? What would I do at 60? And 60 is still great, yeah beautiful.

Janek: 1:16:09

I think this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Any parting words, any advice for entrepreneurs, any fitness freaks yeah, go keto you see, I really struggle hard to avoid I understand, man. Don't worry about it. By the way, we are open for sponsorship will take a million dollars a year, so let me know, uh that is uh.

Kamal: 1:16:35

That is not my league to sponsor for a million year, thank you so much we can discuss, let's discuss.

Janek: 1:16:41

Thank you so much, a. Amazing, thank you. My friend appreciate it.